PvP Colossus Wars

I just had a bit of a theory crafting session with Waesnok on battle.net about this issue. As I'm sure you all know, PvP tends to turn into a game of 'who has the most colossus' if the game survives into mid & late game. The purpose of this thread is to come up with an alternative to this, that is, something to do instead of trying to make more colossus than the other protoss.

I've heard somewhere along the line that some protoss players have had success with using warp prisms to drop immortals behind the colossus once the protoss army engages yours, thus 'sniping' the colossus with immortals. The theory here is that, well, immortals > colossus, plus their shields help keep them alive long enough to do the job. Additionally, any fire that they draw from the colossus is fire not going at the bulk of your army and dealing terrible, terrible damage.

As I am yet to see this actually happen, all I have is...theorycraft. And according to my brainworks, this strategy just isn't going to work effectively for the following reasons:

• Both immortals and warp prisms are built from the robotics facility, meaning this is in direct opposition to making colossus
  
• It relies on being able to fly in and unload without losing your warp prisms to stalker fire
  (potential 700/200 mineral/vespene loss)
  
• Need warp prism speed upgrade (additional cost though not critical flaw)
  
• Simply, the other protoss can react quickly, target firing the immortals with his stalkers, killing them before they accomplish their goal
  
• Your army is constantly forced to retreat from his due to a range disadvantage (losing map control), meaning it may be difficult to actually find a good position to perform the immortal drop

Now, I am definitely not against using warp prisms, and I actually think that the main merit this strategy has is that you have speed prisms available to fly around the map, warping in many units in many locations, dropping immortals and raping bases, then lifting off and flying away when his entire army comes to defend. These types of attacks often leave the opponent flustered, and it may very well be logical to assume that you can catch his colossus in a good position and take them out. However, this type of strategy can be very hit and miss, requires lots of additional micro that would otherwise go into solid game-play mechanics.

So, after we'd (Waesnok and myself) covered this, I got to thinking......air units! Now the only real choices are voids and carriers, as pheonix cannot gravity boom colossus (dammit) and do next to 0 damage against them.

Voids - these units have many practical uses, however I really can't see an army of stalkers and voids standing up to an army of stalkers and colossus; the colossus/stalkers will rape the opposing stalkers very quickly, then they will be free to shoot down the voids with ease. The problem is range: when the voids are in range of the colossus, the stalkers are in range of the voids.

Carriers - this is really where I think the answer lies. Carriers:

• have amazing range
  
• fly (colossus eat your heart out)
  
• soak up lots of damage (interceptors)
  
• have a massive damage output (particularly when upgraded)
  
• are made from a stargate (not interfering with colossus/observer production)
  
• only slightly more expensive and build slightly slower than colossus

The way I see it, once the game gets to 3 bases a piece or more, instead of more robotics facilities and colossus, adding carriers to your mix is a great way to (dare I say it) counter mass colossus play. They can stay with your army (containing colossus of your own of course) and, not being confined by terrain, will be able to snipe colossus with their incredible range, as well as provide all sorts of cover for your army. They can stay right back out of danger, and if the other protoss blinks underneath to kill you, he blinks right into your army and dies within seconds, leaving his colossus naked. Adding air units to your mix will always spark a change in unit composition from your opponent, so obviously continuing to mass carriers may not be the best bet once this has happened. However, having even 2-3 carriers accompany your stalker/colossus army is, in my opinion, a great way to gain the upper hand in PvP matchups.

Thoughts?

Back in the day when I was playing Protoss when I watched a lot of PvP replays, I saw HuK do exactly what you were talking about with the warp prisms and immortals. I'm not sure if he still does it or not though as it may be outdated and not viable anymore.

just some random thoughts after reading your post while i sit here at work.

the immortal theory sounds pretty cool, i would be worried about his army retreating over my immortals, killing them and backing out of the engage. i guess you could pick them back up, pretty wild micro.

i like the idea of using air units. i think this is very similar to the terran builds ive seen where you fast expo with 3 bunkers full of rines, then deny scouting with a thor/raven, then build 4 port banshees and push at like 11. the end mix is marine/thor x 2/banshees/1 raven. this works really well because you can snipe obs with your thors and even if all your marines die to his collosus you can pick up the scraps with your banshee. you can also transition to BCs, late game.

so if i was thinking of a protoss alternative i would base it on this sort of play.

maybe you could open whatever (4 gate is the norm still right), get 2 base 4 gas, get robo and pump immortals, get stargate and get a handful of voids. dump your minerals into zeals. end mix being immortals/a mass of zealots and a small force of voidrays. i think (theorycrafting) the zealots would get fairly melted, but tank a fair bit of damage while your voidrays and immortals kill the stalkers/colossus.

have no idea at all if that would work, but it seems (kindve) to follow a similar idea to the terran build. if you could keep some immortals and voids alive you could mop him up fairly well. might be too gas intensive for 2 base though.

just wondering also, can u get carriers out on a 1-1 basis with collosus? or are they more expensive?

This makes me wonder about battlecruisers. If theyre cost effective against stalkers then they might be viable late game TvP. Yamato could help vs collosus too since it has pretty long range. hmmm....

3 base vs 3 base protoss without collosus? Imo void rays will be the next best thing to take them out. This means the smart move would be for them to go heavy on stalkers and collosus, which means you need to go heavy on immortals and chargelots. It would take some flanking and good micro but I think it could be done... Or you could just get some collosus.

Carriers would be awesome if they let you get them.

i think terran air works somewhat because of ravens and also PDD, i cant think of anything like that that protoss has hmm.